Sins of a Solar Spymaster #51: Painful Lessons - Goonswarm Implodes
The next topic in our Painful Lessons series hits a little closer to home; if Im going to be writing about the catastrophic and stupid screw-ups that have rocked nullsec politics over the past few years, I cant escape the lurching, derelict implosion of my own alliance, Goonswarm. In these articles were taking a deeper look at things which went hellishly wrong in EVE in hopes of learning from the mistakes of others and improving the quality of alliance gameplay.
After the end of the Great War in 2009, Goonswarm was riding high. It had thoroughly defeated its ancient enemy, Band of Brothers, and taken up squatting in the home of its former foe. Life was good in Delve, easy PvP was near at hand, and according to every metric (stations, sov, membership and riches) the Swarm was the #1 alliance in the game. Yet as the months went by, a creeping malaise began to spread within the alliance.
Beginning in July of 2006, when BoB first invaded the small constellation in Syndicate which Goonswarm called home, the Swarm had a singular purpose and a massive grudge: survive long enough to destroy Band of Brothers, and until that do everything possible ruin the game for them. This overarching purpose helped forge the culture of EVE into two great blocs, lining up on BoB or GSs side. When BoB was disbanded by Haargoth Agamar in February 2009 and Delve subsequently conquered, the reason to play EVE vanished for many of the veterans in Goonswarm. The ancient enemy had been defeated, the war was over, time to go play something else.
Eventually, the core corporations of Band of Brothers did reform into a new alliance (IT Alliance) but the core culture of that organization was unrecognizable from the BoB enemy the Swarm once fought. Where the conceit of BoB was that they were the elite of the game, IT Alliance explicitly recruited as many member corporations as would join it, bloating to a massive size.
After Dominion was released, IT began to invade Fountain, the region bordering Delve which was held by Pandemic Legion. PL had seized the mantle of the most elite alliance from Band of Brothers, but their pilots had little interest in actually holding territory, preferring to focus on harvesting killmails and griefing. Fountain began to fall rapidly to ITs incursion, and Pandemic Legion announced that they literally didnt want that region anyway and vowed to become a completely non-territorial roaming alliance.
With the fall of Fountain in January 2010, IT began making attacks on Goonswarm assets in Delve. Despite the numbers of the attackers, Fortress Delve held strong for weeks, seemingly impregnable. Yet inside of a matter of days Goonswarm not only ceased to hold Delve, but ceased to exist as an alliance, laid low not by external enemies, but by a culmination of internal failures and gross negligence.
On January 26th, sovereignty bills came due for more than thirty systems owned by Goonswarm. These were the Dominion Legacy systems which had a TCU created automatically once the Dominion expansion was released. The bills began to pull isk from the wallet of the executor corporation, but there wasnt enough isk there; suddenly sov dropped across the core of Swarm space, rendering it completely vulnerable. The Swarm wasnt the only alliance affected, with sov dropping for Wildly Inappropriate and Legion of Death at the same moment; because of the widespread impact of the Legacy bills, it was initially believed to be one of the many expansion-related bugs.
Finally having the break in the defenses they needed, IT Alliance and their allies Against All Authorities immediately assaulted Delve and Querious. Goonswarm was able to hold onto some of its lost systems, but not all; the capital of Delve where most alliance members lived was lost, as was the primary capital ship staging point. With most of their assets trapped any war-fighting ability was lost, and the order to evacuate was given.
Compounding the crisis was the fact that the leader of Goonswarm, Karttoon, was away on vacation at the time of the sov loss. When he returned a few days afterwards, he faced a storm of rage from the membership, who overwhelmingly blamed him for the collapse. Rather than heeding calls for his resignation, Karttoon stole the alliance wallet and kicked every corporation out of the alliance. Goonswarm had gone from being the most puissant alliance in the game to being utterly destroyed in less than a week.
How did such a spectacular collapse happen?
Absentee Yet Micromanaging Leader: In a situation oddly reminiscent of what befell Atlas Alliance, two major causes of the crisis originated with the alliance leader himself. Like Bobby Atlas, Karttoon insisted on handling many functions of the alliance himself, refusing to delegate. Access to the alliance wallet holding corp only went through him, which meant that in the days before the fatal sov bills came due, his directorate could do nothing to solve the problem had they been aware of it. Even issues as minor as the amount of isk reimbursed for battlecruiser losses in fleet ops would be managed directly by Karttoon, creating a culture where initiative was not rewarded within the directorate. This was bad enough; however things really began to fall apart when Karttoon began to lose interest in the game and his activity levels decreased; if he had devolved more power things could have run smoothly without him, but he did not.
Directorate Burnout: One of the most common mistakes in setting up an alliance directorate is allowing single points of failure in critical systems. Goonswarm had a classic one man, one portfolio directorate; there was a single Finance Director, who was supposed to handle everything isk-related in the alliance from budgeting to keeping track of sov payments. As it happened, Niart Epar, the one man burned out from having too much alliance-related work - and was asleep at the wheel when the bills came due. A more sensible directorate structure is to have teams of directors working on a given portfolio, such that the workload is distributed. Not only do you have more eyes on a problem this way, but everyone involved has less work, so incidences of burnout decrease overall. By the time of the crisis, large portions of the Goonswarm directorate were burnt out and semi-inactive, carrying out their duties halfheartedly and not playing much EVE.
No Common Purpose: Every alliance needs a shared identity and a raison detre. With the utter defeat of Band of Brothers, Goonswarm lost its purpose. Over the years the Swarm had conquered a number of regions and abandoned even more, so the stasis of settling into Delve and defending it indefinitely didnt interest the bulk of the membership. Worse, a number of new recruits appeared more interested in harvesting the riches of the region rather than joining the alliance for the alliances sake; this is the dreaded join for guild (j4g) problem, which inspired bitterness among the hardened PvPers of the Great War era. While the modern Goonswarm Federation has reformulated itself as a communist horde of griefers, Delve-era Goonswarm was drifting, which contributed both to the burnout of the directorate and Karttoons disenchantment with EVE.
Collapse of Regional Allies: The western border of Swarm territory had been seen as impregnable because it was held by Pandemic Legion, the most elite PvP alliance in the game. Fountain began to fall when Sons of Tangra, a renter alliance installed by PL, cascaded. IT snapped up a number of stations without a fight, dodging the notoriously difficult Dominion defense mechanics. Rather than bothering to pry IT out (and suffering the first uncontrollable server blackouts, which resulted in a number of supercapital losses to black screens for no purpose), PL opted to evacuate and skip the entire war. IT took Fountain nearly uncontested, allowing them to put pressure on Goonswarm freely. Sadly, there wasnt much the Swarm could do about this, as if the servers had performed functionally its possible Fountain wouldnt have fallen. In hindsight, PLs choice to skip territorial fleet combat seems all the wiser given the CCP-admitted crippling lag issues.
No Confidence in Leadership: Would you log on to fight for a bunch of idiots who threw away the best region in the game because they couldnt be assed to pay the bills? Me neither. After the crisis broke it was obvious to every alliance member that the directorate and CEO were completely incompetent when it came to performing the basic functions of alliance management. While it may have been possible to fight to re-take Delve had the sovereignty error been shown to be a bug, gross negligence is hardly an effective rallying cry. The rage of the common member against the CEO - which was then exacerbated by his theft and flight - rendered the Swarm military only able to run breakout and evacuation ops, rather than actually fighting back. The lack of confidence also took the reformed Swarm out of action for several months until the new directorate could prove to the membership that it could function without losing everyones stuff.
The rot begins at the top. Both Atlas and Goonswarm were seemingly strong, established powerblocs with wealthy space and large memberships. But a lack of purpose and an absent leadership are eventually killers; each rapidly collapsed from within when confronted with an external threat which they should have been able to manage.
A Brief Digression About Atlas
Last weeks column is now an item of deep irony because I was restrained in predicting how Atlas would survive the fall of its capital systems. A mere day after it was published, Atlas cascaded - or, rather, it did something worse than cascade, it begged the Drone Russian alliances for a Versailles-esque peace. The terms make your skin crawl; for the price of half of the supercapitals Atlas is producing and permanently disbanding their alliance, Atlas will be allowed to keep the other half of their building supercapitals and allowed to exist in some kind of undead vassal-state in deepest Omist, one of the most remote regions in the game. This is nauseating to most of the nullsec community; long-time Atlas allies Against All Authorities instantly reset Atlas and is intent on attacking what remains of them for the sheer insult. Rather than simply disintegrating or retreating to empire, Atlas has given their oppressors the means to vastly increase the size of the very supercapital fleet which annihilated them in the first place.
But dont take it from me; lets see what Bobby Atlas himself has to say! Heres a leak from the Atlas command channel when Bobby found out the news:
?[ 2010.08.27 18:33:12 ] Bobby Atlas > a deal with RA , are you guys crazy?
?[ 2010.08.27 18:33:21 ] kaahooters > aperantyly yes
?[ 2010.08.27 18:33:22 ] kaahooters > but
?[ 2010.08.27 18:33:27 ] Bobby Atlas > no but
?[ 2010.08.27 18:33:29 ] kaahooters > you resigned and we fell apart
?[ 2010.08.27 18:33:42 ] Bobby Atlas > everyone was told over 5 weeks ago
?[ 2010.08.27 18:33:45 ] Bobby Atlas > to stop building supercaps
?[ 2010.08.27 18:33:46 ] kaahooters > yea
?[ 2010.08.27 18:33:53 ] kaahooters > these were in build then
?[ 2010.08.27 18:34:00 ] Frobond > thats prity much what i said bobby
?[ 2010.08.27 18:34:02 ] kaahooters > and that mail was for outside omist
?[ 2010.08.27 18:34:37 ] Bobby Atlas > why the hell are you guys making a deal, alienating ATLAS from what blues we have left (even if they are on a knee themself), for the few cap producers, in the name of alienating the rest of the alliance
?[ 2010.08.27 18:34:55 ] kaahooters > not my call
?[ 2010.08.27 18:35:03 ] kaahooters > im just sayin what i know
?[ 2010.08.27 18:35:05 ] Bobby Atlas > i am hereby issuing notice
?[ 2010.08.27 18:35:06 ] Bobby Atlas > 7 days
?[ 2010.08.27 18:35:09 ] Bobby Atlas > the alliance is disbanding
?[ 2010.08.27 18:35:10 ] kaahooters > till?
?[ 2010.08.27 18:35:12 ] kaahooters > :O
?[ 2010.08.27 18:35:13 ] Bobby Atlas > problem solved
?[ 2010.08.27 18:35:25 ] kaahooters > i see
?[ 2010.08.27 18:35:35 ] kaahooters > well thats noot really fair bobby
?[ 2010.08.27 18:35:41 ] Bobby Atlas > it doesnt have to be fair
?[ 2010.08.27 18:36:04 ] kaahooters > decision was made without you as you resigned as leader, so ,
?[ 2010.08.27 18:36:11 ] kaahooters > i dont think itll go down well if you do taht
?[ 2010.08.27 18:36:20 ] Bobby Atlas > it doesnt have to go down well
?[ 2010.08.27 18:36:43 ] Bobby Atlas > the minute ra get there supercaps there just going to continue the invasion with xix/friends
?[ 2010.08.27 18:36:50 ] Bobby Atlas > and since the deal brokered involves resetting -a-
?[ 2010.08.27 18:36:54 ] Bobby Atlas > it means rol will reset also
?[ 2010.08.27 18:36:57 ] Bobby Atlas > and init eventually
?[ 2010.08.27 18:36:59 ] kaahooters > and by that satage we should have all our crap out
?[ 2010.08.27 18:37:05 ] Bobby Atlas > leaivng atlas alone and dead anyways
?[ 2010.08.27 18:37:18 ] Kerdrak > \o
?[ 2010.08.27 18:37:19 ] Kirianshalee > :sigh
?[ 2010.08.27 18:37:30 ] Vorce > I thought the desition about disbanding had allready been mad. Unless I missunderstood the discussion last night
?[ 2010.08.27 18:37:31 ] kaahooters > bobby its dead as it is, noone will pewpew cos your not here
?[ 2010.08.27 18:37:44 ] Bobby Atlas > [18:37:30] Vorce > I thought the desition about disbanding had allready been mad. Unless I missunderstood the discussion last night
?[ 2010.08.27 18:37:47 ] Bobby Atlas > explain vorce
?[ 2010.08.27 18:37:56 ] Aurora148 > its part of the deal
?[ 2010.08.27 18:38:00 ] Aurora148 > atlas is disbanded
?[ 2010.08.27 18:38:08 ] Vorce > I'm not sure, was semi afk but i saw talks about disbanding
?[ 2010.08.27 18:38:09 ] kaahooters > i didnt get told that
?[ 2010.08.27 18:38:13 ] Bobby Atlas > part of the deal brokered involves atlas disbanding?
?[ 2010.08.27 18:38:18 ] Bobby Atlas > that is an actual term in the deal?
?[ 2010.08.27 18:38:21 ] Madcat144 > yes
?[ 2010.08.27 18:38:26 ] Bobby Atlas > are you f***in joking?
?[ 2010.08.27 18:38:29 ] Madcat144 > no
?[ 2010.08.27 18:38:36 ] Bobby Atlas > did they ask you to suck there ****s too
?[ 2010.08.27 18:38:37 ] kaahooters > i was told 2 titans 3 sc to ra ect, we get blue, have to drop our blues and thats it
?[ 2010.08.27 18:38:40 ] Bobby Atlas > and give up your wives
?[ 2010.08.27 18:38:47 ] Kerdrak > bobby, can you magically reimburse all cap builders?
?[ 2010.08.27 18:38:53 ] Bobby Atlas > KERDRAK
?[ 2010.08.27 18:38:57 ] Bobby Atlas > all cap builders were told
?[ 2010.08.27 18:38:59 ] Bobby Atlas > over 5 weeks ago
?[ 2010.08.27 18:39:01 ] Bobby Atlas > to STOP BUILDING
?[ 2010.08.27 18:39:14 ] Bobby Atlas > it was in the leadership topic
?[ 2010.08.27 18:39:16 ] Bobby Atlas > for weeks
?[ 2010.08.27 18:39:21 ] Gloria Khan > hi Bobby
?[ 2010.08.27 18:39:24 ] Kerdrak > we also were told we would defend
?[ 2010.08.27 18:39:30 ] Kerdrak > we would had allies
?[ 2010.08.27 18:39:32 ] Kerdrak > and all that
?[ 2010.08.27 18:39:37 ] Shaleen > it takes more than 5 weeks to buld a titan
?[ 2010.08.27 18:39:45 ] kaahooters > -a- f****d, sos rol
?[ 2010.08.27 18:39:46 ] Bobby Atlas > at the time when the order was put up
?[ 2010.08.27 18:39:49 ] Shaleen > *build
?[ 2010.08.27 18:39:51 ] Bobby Atlas > there was 1 titan in build
?[ 2010.08.27 18:40:05 ] Kerdrak > when i built my titan we were under nor threat
?[ 2010.08.27 18:40:22 ] Bobby Atlas > good for you
?[ 2010.08.27 18:40:33 ] Bobby Atlas > the actions of the few, should not alienate the many
?[ 2010.08.27 18:40:41 ] Kerdrak > yeah
?[ 2010.08.27 18:40:43 ] Kerdrak > you are right
?[ 2010.08.27 18:40:47 ] Bobby Atlas > membership above all else
?[ 2010.08.27 18:40:50 ] Kerdrak > the many here are the people who want to save some isk
?[ 2010.08.27 18:40:53 ] Bobby Atlas > the fact the few have supercaps building
?[ 2010.08.27 18:40:57 ] Bobby Atlas > should not dictate policy
?[ 2010.08.27 18:41:01 ] Kerdrak > as the remaining have already evacced
?[ 2010.08.27 18:41:12 ] Kerdrak > and the alliance is DEAD
?[ 2010.08.27 18:41:13 ] Bobby Atlas > the many are not the membership
?[ 2010.08.27 18:41:24 ] Tenhult > so we have like 7 days now and all super caps are gone?
?[ 2010.08.27 18:41:34 ] kaahooters > yup
?[ 2010.08.27 18:41:44 ] Bobby Atlas > i will not sit by and watch a sellout to ra that has such retarded terms
?[ 2010.08.27 18:41:48 ] Madcat144 > till bigger and better things
?[ 2010.08.27 18:41:52 ] Bobby Atlas > i will sooner disband it myself
?[ 2010.08.27 18:41:55 ] Madcat144 > 7 days till we can move on
?[ 2010.08.27 18:41:59 ] Tenhult > things change fast in this game :-)
?[ 2010.08.27 18:42:08 ] Bobby Atlas > you dont create policy and terms around the supercap builders
?[ 2010.08.27 18:42:11 ] Kerdrak > now you are taking the justice by your only hand
?[ 2010.08.27 18:42:28 ] Bobby Atlas > no im not
?[ 2010.08.27 18:42:28 ] Kerdrak > you have created policy under your only terms
?[ 2010.08.27 18:42:32 ] Kerdrak > all this time
?[ 2010.08.27 18:42:37 ] kaahooters > it did work
?[ 2010.08.27 18:42:39 ] Kerdrak > and nobody said anything
?[ 2010.08.27 18:42:42 ] kaahooters > but only whe you were here
?[ 2010.08.27 18:42:44 ] Bobby Atlas > i always created policy on behalf of the members
?[ 2010.08.27 18:42:45 ] Kerdrak > you MADE DEALS with RA
?[ 2010.08.27 18:42:46 ] Bobby Atlas > not myself
?[ 2010.08.27 18:42:47 ] Kerdrak > in teh past
?[ 2010.08.27 18:42:51 ] Bobby Atlas > wrong
?[ 2010.08.27 18:42:53 ] Kerdrak > and we have to say "ok bobby"
?[ 2010.08.27 18:42:54 ] Bobby Atlas > WRONG
?[ 2010.08.27 18:43:13 ] Bobby Atlas > there is a difference between deals
?[ 2010.08.27 18:43:16 ] Tenhult > can you make bigger caps bobby?
?[ 2010.08.27 18:43:27 ] Kerdrak > no there is no difference
?[ 2010.08.27 18:43:29 ] Bobby Atlas > no but you can
?[ 2010.08.27 18:43:35 ] Bobby Atlas > click the a+ button
?[ 2010.08.27 18:43:36 ] kaahooters > thats not fair, bobby can get everyone in the alliance in caps
?[ 2010.08.27 18:43:38 ] Bobby Atlas > works like a charm
?[ 2010.08.27 18:43:40 ] kaahooters > bobby
?[ 2010.08.27 18:43:44 ] kaahooters > a arent comin to help
?[ 2010.08.27 18:43:47 ] Kerdrak > i made a deal to satisfy the most people
?[ 2010.08.27 18:43:51 ] Bobby Atlas > i know -a- arnt coming
?[ 2010.08.27 18:43:53 ] Bobby Atlas > -a- is dying too
?[ 2010.08.27 18:44:00 ] Kerdrak > and the majority is ok
?[ 2010.08.27 18:44:01 ] Bobby Atlas > no you made a deal to satisfy the cap builders
?[ 2010.08.27 18:44:02 ] kaahooters > then whats the problem
?[ 2010.08.27 18:44:03 ] Bobby Atlas > above all else
?[ 2010.08.27 18:44:08 ] kaahooters > you know we cant do s**t
?[ 2010.08.27 18:44:10 ] Kerdrak > THE PROBLEM IS THE E-HONOUR....
?[ 2010.08.27 18:44:12 ] Kerdrak > meh
?[ 2010.08.27 18:44:19 ] kaahooters > and d your raging at kend for doin the best he can
?[ 2010.08.27 18:44:19 ] Kinizsi > ROL die allso?
?[ 2010.08.27 18:44:30 ] Bobby Atlas > ROL will just merge
?[ 2010.08.27 18:44:30 ] Aurora148 > all the good people left rol for wn
?[ 2010.08.27 18:44:33 ] Kerdrak > i've never seen a rol ship
?[ 2010.08.27 18:44:34 ] Kerdrak > tbh
?[ 2010.08.27 18:44:34 ] Bobby Atlas > with another rusk group
?[ 2010.08.27 18:44:38 ] Bobby Atlas > mostly WN
?[ 2010.08.27 18:44:39 ] Bobby Atlas > ya
?[ 2010.08.27 18:44:44 ] Dexster916 > it would also include safe evac for those with ships remaining in stations, to my members thats pretty imprortant :\
?[ 2010.08.27 18:44:58 ] Kerdrak > and -a- the only fleet that have taken to our territory was to fight init
?[ 2010.08.27 18:45:02 ] Kerdrak > that is pretty pathetic
?[ 2010.08.27 18:45:08 ] madhapee > ^^
?[ 2010.08.27 18:45:19 ] Kerdrak > so no... bobby, sorry but i'm bored of this s**t
?[ 2010.08.27 18:45:22 ] Gloria Khan > it is poinless shouting over this guys - it is the deal we have agreed
?[ 2010.08.27 18:45:25 ] Kerdrak > and we are not gonna lose more stuff
?[ 2010.08.27 18:45:31 ] Gloria Khan > this^^
?[ 2010.08.27 18:45:33 ] Kerdrak > we are done
?[ 2010.08.27 18:45:41 ] Kerdrak > best thing we can do is save what we can
?[ 2010.08.27 18:45:43 ] Kerdrak > reform
?[ 2010.08.27 18:45:45 ] Kerdrak > and start again
?[ 2010.08.27 18:46:11 ] kaahooters > we grew to fat and lazy, with to much inactivity at all levels
?[ 2010.08.27 18:46:16 ] Bobby Atlas > there is nothing to reform if you sell out like this
?[ 2010.08.27 18:46:16 ] Kerdrak > i don't care about e-honour and dealing with russians... this is a game
?[ 2010.08.27 18:46:23 ] Bobby Atlas > [18:46:11] kaahooters > we grew to fat and lazy, with to much inactivity at all levels
?[ 2010.08.27 18:46:26 ] Bobby Atlas > nope not even close
?[ 2010.08.27 18:46:35 ] Kerdrak > you can have the holding and the alliance if you want
?[ 2010.08.27 18:46:36 ] madhapee > its more of a tactical retreat i think
?[ 2010.08.27 18:46:40 ] Kerdrak > and put it in a keychain
?[ 2010.08.27 18:46:40 ] kaahooters > dude, we havent done anything since geminate
?[ 2010.08.27 18:46:46 ] Madcat144 > we made the deal already? we cant go back?
?[ 2010.08.27 18:46:52 ] madhapee > recovering as much as we can and losing less than we will
?[ 2010.08.27 18:47:04 ] Kerdrak > no, we can't go back and we wont unless someone put 200b in the table
?[ 2010.08.27 18:47:04 ] Shaleen > soo Bobby you left alliance you post "I am sorry" , Kerdrak takes over and tries to save what he can and you just log in and say "lets look after members" ....
?[ 2010.08.27 18:47:19 ] Kerdrak > someone give me noe 200b and i will the russians to f*** off
?[ 2010.08.27 18:47:20 ] Bobby Atlas > geminate finished in feb we came home went provi then north which was a cluster f*** then back south
?[ 2010.08.27 18:47:22 ] Bobby Atlas > and a month later
?[ 2010.08.27 18:47:28 ] Kirianshalee > saveing billiions is looking after corps
?[ 2010.08.27 18:47:29 ] Bobby Atlas > ruskies started pounding on s***
?[ 2010.08.27 18:47:37 ] Bobby Atlas > so dont say we sat idle
?[ 2010.08.27 18:47:44 ] Gloria Khan > guys chill out. lets move on
?[ 2010.08.27 18:47:50 ] Gloria Khan > look ahead not back
?[ 2010.08.27 18:47:58 ] kaahooters > yea, and our particaption was weining since geminate, f*** all went and cleared out prov
?[ 2010.08.27 18:47:58 ] Shaleen > that`s why Kerdrak try to achieve
?[ 2010.08.27 18:48:16 ] Kerdrak > i did what people asked
?[ 2010.08.27 18:48:20 ] Kerdrak > to save stuff
?[ 2010.08.27 18:48:26 ] Kerdrak > we have to pay for that
?[ 2010.08.27 18:48:29 ] Gloria Khan > i backed Kerdrak 100%
?[ 2010.08.27 18:48:30 ] Kerdrak > e-honour?
?[ 2010.08.27 18:48:37 ] kaahooters > f*** e honour
?[ 2010.08.27 18:48:39 ] kaahooters > its a game
?[ 2010.08.27 18:48:42 ] Tenhult > move on where? we cant do s*** as bobby cant/wont run the alliance. But disband it every time we do something he doesnt like
?[ 2010.08.27 18:48:49 ] kaahooters > and ppl dont like losing, and less losing everything they have
?[ 2010.08.27 18:48:53 ] Kerdrak > in 2 months nobody will care
?[ 2010.08.27 18:49:36 ] Kerdrak > everyone have the chance to evac their stuff, pay the lost titans and the builders
?[ 2010.08.27 18:49:44 ] Kerdrak > then when all numbers are done
?[ 2010.08.27 18:49:51 ] Kerdrak > everyone can follow their path
?[ 2010.08.27 18:49:55 ] Kerdrak > or keep together
?[ 2010.08.27 18:50:04 ] Vorce > Will that deal include getting s*** out of Detorid as well?
?[ 2010.08.27 18:50:09 ] kaahooters > and bobby loged
?[ 2010.08.27 18:50:14 ] Dexster916 > i really hope he doesnt disband our alliance...
?[ 2010.08.27 18:50:15 ] Shaleen > haha , very nice logged off
?[ 2010.08.27 18:50:16 ] Kirianshalee > sccrew bobby
?[ 2010.08.27 18:50:23 ] Vorce > Will that deal include getting s*** out of Detorid as well?
?[ 2010.08.27 18:50:23 ] kaahooters > expect ts and forums to erage deelete and alliance disbanded in 30 min
?[ 2010.08.27 18:50:27 ] madhapee > so the usual from bobby ?
?[ 2010.08.27 18:50:37 ] Kerdrak > gl disbandind the ally
?[ 2010.08.27 18:50:40 ] Vera Vagabond > bobby doesnt have roles to dispand
?[ 2010.08.27 18:50:44 ] Vera Vagabond > i just checked
?[ 2010.08.27 18:50:47 ] kaahooters > epic
?[ 2010.08.27 18:50:50 ] Dexster916 > ok good lol
?[ 2010.08.27 18:50:54 ] Kerdrak > and tbh if he shutdown the forum
?[ 2010.08.27 18:50:57 ] Kerdrak > will do us a favor
?[ 2010.08.27 18:51:07 ] madhapee > less info for the spais
?[ 2010.08.27 18:51:13 ] Vorce > This place is like a chatroom for kids right now
?[ 2010.08.27 18:51:27 ] kaahooters > are you sayin atlas is all pedos?
?[ 2010.08.27 18:51:30 ] Lady Youwish > Bobby did have one good idea
?[ 2010.08.27 18:52:24 ] kaahooters > tbh, all i care about is gettin the guys that lost titans something to compensate them
?[ 2010.08.27 18:52:36 ] Madcat144 > ?[ 2010.08.27 18:35:05 ] Bobby Atlas > i am hereby issuing notice?[ 2010.08.27 18:35:06 ] Bobby Atlas > 7 days?[ 2010.08.27 18:35:09 ] Bobby Atlas > the alliance is disbanding
?[ 2010.08.27 18:52:37 ] Madcat144 > ?
?[ 2010.08.27 18:52:47 ] Shaleen > and that is exactly what Kerdrak is trying to achieve
?[ 2010.08.27 18:53:07 ] Madcat144 > in two months
?[ 2010.08.27 18:53:09 ] Kerdrak > have no sense
?[ 2010.08.27 18:53:12 ] Kerdrak > he abandoned us
?[ 2010.08.27 18:53:19 ] Kerdrak > but he comes when we take a decision
?[ 2010.08.27 18:53:21 ] kaahooters > look
?[ 2010.08.27 18:59:31 ] Kerdrak > BobbyAtlas dice: why were my roles in holding
Even though Im jaded from years of reading spy reports of the sorrows of other alliances in the midst of a cascade, that log is positively delectable. I get a frisson every time I read it. Amazing.