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Forum Fight #1 - PvP-RP vs. PvE-RP
Posted April 22nd, 2008 by Machail
The fight: PvP-RP or
PvE-RP servers, do we need both?
In the orange corner; representing PvP-RP servers, weighing in at 322 posts, and a member since March 2008: COENHEART
And in the yellow corner; a member since January 2008, weighing in at 372 posts, a celebrity of "Rolling With Roleplayers," and representin' for the PvE-RP homies: KHALATHWYR
Crowd Favorite: Coenheart appears to be the crowd favorite in this one, though only by a single vote.
Machail: Looks like we've got our two victims, er fighters all ready for the first forum fight. How do you guys think it's looking?
Martuk: Khal and Coen are new to the forum fight arena, but both are capable posters so this should be a good battle.
JoBildo: Well, they're both ridiculously ugly... so I'm hoping to not spend too much time looking at them. You guys just tell me how it goes.
Khalathwyr: Why play such a violent game? Violence in lore should not preclude whole portions of the gaming populace simply because they choose, while playing this game, to not take part in one game play feature 100% of the time. That makes about as much sense as forcing everyone to have to craft every 3 minutes just because the feature is in the game.
Coenheart: So you think that because you are playing this game on a PvP server you are going to be forced into PvP 100% of the time, or every 3 minutes for that matter? The amount of time you believe you are going to be forced into combat with another player is a wee bit off, or in other words, not even close.
Khalathwyr: I too have played on a PvP server a few times and each time I rolled a new character on those different servers in different games I was jumped when either I first got into the game or first got within eyesight of town. You miss the point. The point, is it's a game. Games are meant to be played for fun. Not just the PvPer's fun. For everyone's fun.
Coenheart: So you have a few bad experiences and you refuse to ever try something again. That doesn’t sound very productive, but whatever tickles your pickle man.
Khalathwyr: That "So you had a few bad experiences.." line is too clichéd.
Coenheart: Breathing air is a cliché as well, but it works.
JoBildo: You what else is cliché? Remind everyone what's a cliché. I give this round to Khal just for pointing that out... but I like Coen's heart... in that he has none.
Martuk: Khal opened with a solid argument. Coen with a fair rebuttal, but a little light on the logic. When did breathing become a cliché again?
Machail: Gotta agree with you guys. Buzz the buzzer on Coen there. This round to Khal.
In the orange corner; representing PvP-RP servers, weighing in at 322 posts, and a member since March 2008: COENHEART
And in the yellow corner; a member since January 2008, weighing in at 372 posts, a celebrity of "Rolling With Roleplayers," and representin' for the PvE-RP homies: KHALATHWYR
Crowd Favorite: Coenheart appears to be the crowd favorite in this one, though only by a single vote.
Machail: Looks like we've got our two victims, er fighters all ready for the first forum fight. How do you guys think it's looking?
Martuk: Khal and Coen are new to the forum fight arena, but both are capable posters so this should be a good battle.
JoBildo: Well, they're both ridiculously ugly... so I'm hoping to not spend too much time looking at them. You guys just tell me how it goes.
ROUND ONE
Khalathwyr: Why play such a violent game? Violence in lore should not preclude whole portions of the gaming populace simply because they choose, while playing this game, to not take part in one game play feature 100% of the time. That makes about as much sense as forcing everyone to have to craft every 3 minutes just because the feature is in the game.
Coenheart: So you think that because you are playing this game on a PvP server you are going to be forced into PvP 100% of the time, or every 3 minutes for that matter? The amount of time you believe you are going to be forced into combat with another player is a wee bit off, or in other words, not even close.
Khalathwyr: I too have played on a PvP server a few times and each time I rolled a new character on those different servers in different games I was jumped when either I first got into the game or first got within eyesight of town. You miss the point. The point, is it's a game. Games are meant to be played for fun. Not just the PvPer's fun. For everyone's fun.
Coenheart: So you have a few bad experiences and you refuse to ever try something again. That doesn’t sound very productive, but whatever tickles your pickle man.
Khalathwyr: That "So you had a few bad experiences.." line is too clichéd.
Coenheart: Breathing air is a cliché as well, but it works.
JoBildo: You what else is cliché? Remind everyone what's a cliché. I give this round to Khal just for pointing that out... but I like Coen's heart... in that he has none.
Martuk: Khal opened with a solid argument. Coen with a fair rebuttal, but a little light on the logic. When did breathing become a cliché again?
Machail: Gotta agree with you guys. Buzz the buzzer on Coen there. This round to Khal.
ROUND TWO
Khalathwyr: You are
wrong in that there is reason to want a PvE-RP server. Just as hardcore
PvPers want a PvP server roleplayers want both a PvP and PvE server
(one of which is in already). Some people want to just
log in and play their game and not have to deal with people they deem
"weirdos" who "take this game too seriously" and need to "get a life".
Coenheart: If role-players make someone uncomfortable then they shouldn’t be playing a, ready for this one, Massive Multiplayer Online…here it comes…
Role
Playing…Game, MMORPG. You
don’t even need server tags, there
it is in the game category. Imagine that!
Khalathwyr: Take a look at all the servers of all the MMORPGs out there. Pay special attention to the Chuck Norris conversations and the "I pwnzor yur NoObN355!!!1!" and show me just one place where Chuck is mentioned or that phrase is written in the lore/background of Star Wars, in the Realms of Camelot, in the original lands of Azeroth or in any of Robert E. Howard's works. Please show me, I'm a patient man. I'll wait.
See, fact is, Roleplaying, unfortunately, can't be expected anymore in these types of games.
Coenheart: I heard Chuck Norris can simply insert himself into Lore, guess that news hasn’t gotten around yet. And does anyone even talk like that anymore?
Khalathwyr: Does anyone talk like that? http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173364. Yep.
Martuk: OH my god they summoned Chuck Norris!
JoBildo: This one's all Khal again. Just for reminding me why it's good to have RP servers... as refuge from Chuck Norris.
Machail: And negative points to Coen for actually making a Chuck Norris joke. This is a professional ring. There's no room for that kind of malarky here.
Coenheart: If role-players make someone uncomfortable then they shouldn’t be playing a, ready for this one, Massive Multiplayer Online…here it comes…
Role
Playing…Game, MMORPG. You
don’t even need server tags, there
it is in the game category. Imagine that!Khalathwyr: Take a look at all the servers of all the MMORPGs out there. Pay special attention to the Chuck Norris conversations and the "I pwnzor yur NoObN355!!!1!" and show me just one place where Chuck is mentioned or that phrase is written in the lore/background of Star Wars, in the Realms of Camelot, in the original lands of Azeroth or in any of Robert E. Howard's works. Please show me, I'm a patient man. I'll wait.
See, fact is, Roleplaying, unfortunately, can't be expected anymore in these types of games.
Coenheart: I heard Chuck Norris can simply insert himself into Lore, guess that news hasn’t gotten around yet. And does anyone even talk like that anymore?
Khalathwyr: Does anyone talk like that? http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173364. Yep.
Martuk: OH my god they summoned Chuck Norris!
JoBildo: This one's all Khal again. Just for reminding me why it's good to have RP servers... as refuge from Chuck Norris.
Machail: And negative points to Coen for actually making a Chuck Norris joke. This is a professional ring. There's no room for that kind of malarky here.
ROUND THREE
Coenheart:
So, stay with me here, just like on a normal PvE server, on an RP
server people are going to run up and disrupt your role-playing,
because you can‘t be expected to
role-play all the
time on a RP server, because they can. And what are you going to do?
Report them I assume, or put them on ignore. I think their conduct is
reportable on all servers, and that would fall under harassment. Oh,
that’s right, on a regular PvE server you’d be
interrupted “every 3
minutes”.
Khalathwyr: Me personally, I won't report them. Add them to my ignore list for sure. Either way I'd personally much rather only have to deal with that than wasting minutes of my time engaged in combat with them. Or having to run back to the location I was at after being killed by someone who thought it would be funny to off me while I'm fighting a quest boss. That to me is not fun. Games are played for fun. Simple concept.
Coenheart: Of course, fun; community and challenge and banding together to overcome something, definitely not. I mean if you're not having fun then who cares about those other people who are counting on you. It’s all about you.
Khalathwyr: I'm already familiar with the stance and rally cry of the proponents of the opposing side to this topic, thank you.
Coenheart: Oh that’s not the rallying cry, this is. “We aren’t all jerks, and we won’t ruin your game play.”
Martuk: Perhaps its from all my years of head trauma, but did Coen actually just make Khal's point?
JoBildo: I think... yeah, I think he did.
Martuk (shuffling blindly through papers): How the heck do we score that one?!
Machail: Does that mean we deduct points from Khal since Coen is apprarently fighting for him now? But then he just made a point for the other guy, so do we deduct from Khal or Coen? Or does Coen lose points and Khal gain them?
JoBildo: Um... I say give Coen a point on Khal's side.
Martuk: Good call; Coen lands a devastating blow on himself, thus riveting the argument in Khal's favor.
JoBildo: Can we move on? My head hurts.
Khalathwyr: Me personally, I won't report them. Add them to my ignore list for sure. Either way I'd personally much rather only have to deal with that than wasting minutes of my time engaged in combat with them. Or having to run back to the location I was at after being killed by someone who thought it would be funny to off me while I'm fighting a quest boss. That to me is not fun. Games are played for fun. Simple concept.
Coenheart: Of course, fun; community and challenge and banding together to overcome something, definitely not. I mean if you're not having fun then who cares about those other people who are counting on you. It’s all about you.
Khalathwyr: I'm already familiar with the stance and rally cry of the proponents of the opposing side to this topic, thank you.
Coenheart: Oh that’s not the rallying cry, this is. “We aren’t all jerks, and we won’t ruin your game play.”
Martuk: Perhaps its from all my years of head trauma, but did Coen actually just make Khal's point?
JoBildo: I think... yeah, I think he did.
Martuk (shuffling blindly through papers): How the heck do we score that one?!
Machail: Does that mean we deduct points from Khal since Coen is apprarently fighting for him now? But then he just made a point for the other guy, so do we deduct from Khal or Coen? Or does Coen lose points and Khal gain them?
JoBildo: Um... I say give Coen a point on Khal's side.
Martuk: Good call; Coen lands a devastating blow on himself, thus riveting the argument in Khal's favor.
JoBildo: Can we move on? My head hurts.
ROUND FOUR
Khalathwyr:
As for
a RP-PvE taking away from RP opportunities, the majority of RP
you will see on a RP PvP server is combat. If you can call it RP. I
doubt there will be much verbal interaction between
adversaries.
Coenheart: Of course, how foolish of me, there won't be any verbal interaction. Someone killing you is defiantly not a reason to hate them….yeah.
Khalathwyr: I never said someone killing you wasn't reason a reason to hate them. I did, however, insinuate that will be the majority of interaction on PvP enabled servers. We have reports now of how level 80s are in beta now and are camping the corpses and spawn points of level 20s.
Coenheart: I can’t confirm that report because I haven’t actually seen that happen.
Khalathwyr: http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/170812. It's question number 4. Having a definitive statement like this here proves that those who want to grief and make trouble are on this game just as the rest of us are. If they get a chance to attack you, they will.
Coenheart: I did read that article and here is the quote you are referring to:
“You could kill anyone pretty much anywhere. Naturally, it wasn’t long before level 80s were camping level 20s at resurrection points and we had to start making rules and policies and putting our systems in place.”
Tricky, tricky! That’s the great thing about Beta, they can see where they need to make changes and make them.
JoBildo: Hmm... you know, I think it's a tough spot to defend, but I like Coen's spirit. Give this round to him for sound logic.
Martuk: I will give Coen points for confusing me and score this in favor of Khal for sound logic and links.
JoBildo: Well, Mac... up to you, who wins this round? Khal or Coen?
Machail: I'm gonna go with Coen. He followed Khal outside the ring and pulled him back in with a solid argument about beta's purpose.
Martuk: The Beta smackdown takes the round.
Coenheart: Of course, how foolish of me, there won't be any verbal interaction. Someone killing you is defiantly not a reason to hate them….yeah.
Khalathwyr: I never said someone killing you wasn't reason a reason to hate them. I did, however, insinuate that will be the majority of interaction on PvP enabled servers. We have reports now of how level 80s are in beta now and are camping the corpses and spawn points of level 20s.
Coenheart: I can’t confirm that report because I haven’t actually seen that happen.
Khalathwyr: http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/170812. It's question number 4. Having a definitive statement like this here proves that those who want to grief and make trouble are on this game just as the rest of us are. If they get a chance to attack you, they will.
Coenheart: I did read that article and here is the quote you are referring to:
“You could kill anyone pretty much anywhere. Naturally, it wasn’t long before level 80s were camping level 20s at resurrection points and we had to start making rules and policies and putting our systems in place.”
Tricky, tricky! That’s the great thing about Beta, they can see where they need to make changes and make them.
JoBildo: Hmm... you know, I think it's a tough spot to defend, but I like Coen's spirit. Give this round to him for sound logic.
Martuk: I will give Coen points for confusing me and score this in favor of Khal for sound logic and links.
JoBildo: Well, Mac... up to you, who wins this round? Khal or Coen?
Machail: I'm gonna go with Coen. He followed Khal outside the ring and pulled him back in with a solid argument about beta's purpose.
Martuk: The Beta smackdown takes the round.
ROUND FIVE
Coenheart:
So you see no reason at all for a RP-PvP server and demand a RP-PvE
server? That’s what I’m getting out of all this.
You don’t think any
role-playing will take place, just ruthless killing.
Khalathwyr: Ok Lucy, let me Esplain. As I said before, most people will take the easiest route. If that involves jumping you and portraying a "deaf/mute mass murderer", then that's what many people will do.
Coenheart: Shouldn’t role-playing be based on the setting? I’m not sure that there were many deaf/mute mass murderers “back in the day”. Look at the possibilities, toll bridges, how awesome is that. If you can’t handle ignoring someone who is a jerk, how do you handle certain situations in life? Sure it’s just a game, but a lot can be learned from this type of game. Interacting with different kinds of people is one of them. You are teaching people nothing other than segregation is ok.
Khalathwyr: I agree, role-play has and should draw from the setting of the game. I agree, there probably weren't many deaf/mute mass murderers back in the day, but back in the day when Ultima Online launched, that was the most role-played character I've ever seen. It still is the most popular form of "evil-doer" in games that have PvP enabled RP servers today.
As for the segregation remark, try harder. Ok, in that line of thinking, why not offer only a PvP server then? No PvE, no RP PvP and no RP PvE.
Coenheart: So a mob that gets the jump on you and kills you while you are running away from another mob is wasting your time as well. Perhaps an invincibility button should be implemented for people who don’t want to waste their time with trifling things, like death.
Khalathwyr: I see your point about the mob, but I counter that if a player killed me and then I was able to get my corpse it probably wouldn't bother me so much. It's the fact that alot of those players will camp that spot.
Martuk: Ha HAHA I have to give Khal points for shape shifting Coen into Lucy.
JoBildo: I always did get a Ricky Ricardo vibe from Khal. Tough one though... both have sound points. I'm going to award both side a point.
Machail: I'm going to have to do the same. It was a flurry of valid points there, each one blocked and a counterpoint made. That was a good round.
Khalathwyr: Ok Lucy, let me Esplain. As I said before, most people will take the easiest route. If that involves jumping you and portraying a "deaf/mute mass murderer", then that's what many people will do.
Coenheart: Shouldn’t role-playing be based on the setting? I’m not sure that there were many deaf/mute mass murderers “back in the day”. Look at the possibilities, toll bridges, how awesome is that. If you can’t handle ignoring someone who is a jerk, how do you handle certain situations in life? Sure it’s just a game, but a lot can be learned from this type of game. Interacting with different kinds of people is one of them. You are teaching people nothing other than segregation is ok.
Khalathwyr: I agree, role-play has and should draw from the setting of the game. I agree, there probably weren't many deaf/mute mass murderers back in the day, but back in the day when Ultima Online launched, that was the most role-played character I've ever seen. It still is the most popular form of "evil-doer" in games that have PvP enabled RP servers today.
As for the segregation remark, try harder. Ok, in that line of thinking, why not offer only a PvP server then? No PvE, no RP PvP and no RP PvE.
Coenheart: So a mob that gets the jump on you and kills you while you are running away from another mob is wasting your time as well. Perhaps an invincibility button should be implemented for people who don’t want to waste their time with trifling things, like death.
Khalathwyr: I see your point about the mob, but I counter that if a player killed me and then I was able to get my corpse it probably wouldn't bother me so much. It's the fact that alot of those players will camp that spot.
Martuk: Ha HAHA I have to give Khal points for shape shifting Coen into Lucy.
JoBildo: I always did get a Ricky Ricardo vibe from Khal. Tough one though... both have sound points. I'm going to award both side a point.
Machail: I'm going to have to do the same. It was a flurry of valid points there, each one blocked and a counterpoint made. That was a good round.
ROUND SIX
Khalathwyr: I understand
that it may be hard to look
past your own nose and understand that other people may not like the
exact same things as you, but let me throw the proverbial cold water on
you: There are many.
Coenheart:
You’re right! I mean look at the TTH poll, 50 people want a
RP-PvE
server. Now that’s a large server if I ever saw one! I know
the link
for that post has been posted on the Funcom AoC forums, and yet so many
people were adamant about having one, 50 whole people, came
over and said they want a RP-PvE
server.
Khalathwyr: Getting people to vote in an online poll is no guarantee. Instead of looking at the exact number, you should instead look at it relative to the other figures percentage wise. The TTH site does not by any means have the sum total of gamers who will play this game.
Coenheart: Over 500 people have written an entry in TTH’s AoC for Life contest. Those people wanted the prizes bad enough to create an account and write a 100 to 250 word statement on why they would play for life. If there really is this gigantic outcry for a RP-PvE server, I would think registering and clicking a button would be far easier than registering and writing 100-250 words.
Machail: Coen CREAMED Khal there. I don't think Khal saw that coming.
JoBildo: I see Khal's point, but the truth is, if there really were that many folks wanting what Khal wants... where are they and why haven't they made their voices heard?
Martuk: Coen makes some good points, but he poked fun at my poll.
Machail: You should be used to folks making fun of your poll. I know your girlfriend sure does.
POINTS TALLY:
Round One - Khalathwyr
Round Two - Khalathwyr
Round Three - Coenheart scores one for Khalathwyr
Round Four - Coenheart
Round Five - Draw
Round Six - Coenheart
Machail: Khalathwyr declared as winner. I think if the fight continued longer we may have seen a shift, as Coen finished quite strongly.
Martuk: Indeed. Khal argued his side well. It just looks like the cards fell on Coens side this day.
Machail: Reverse that. Then frame it.
Martuk: Oh, doh!
JoBildo: That's all from the AoC Ten Ton Hammer Forum Fight Arena. Join us next time for Forum Fight #2 - Casual vs Hardcore.
Coenheart:
You’re right! I mean look at the TTH poll, 50 people want a
RP-PvE
server. Now that’s a large server if I ever saw one! I know
the link
for that post has been posted on the Funcom AoC forums, and yet so many
people were adamant about having one, 50 whole people, came
over and said they want a RP-PvE
server. Khalathwyr: Getting people to vote in an online poll is no guarantee. Instead of looking at the exact number, you should instead look at it relative to the other figures percentage wise. The TTH site does not by any means have the sum total of gamers who will play this game.
Coenheart: Over 500 people have written an entry in TTH’s AoC for Life contest. Those people wanted the prizes bad enough to create an account and write a 100 to 250 word statement on why they would play for life. If there really is this gigantic outcry for a RP-PvE server, I would think registering and clicking a button would be far easier than registering and writing 100-250 words.
Machail: Coen CREAMED Khal there. I don't think Khal saw that coming.
JoBildo: I see Khal's point, but the truth is, if there really were that many folks wanting what Khal wants... where are they and why haven't they made their voices heard?
Martuk: Coen makes some good points, but he poked fun at my poll.
Machail: You should be used to folks making fun of your poll. I know your girlfriend sure does.
POINTS TALLY:
Round One - Khalathwyr
Round Two - Khalathwyr
Round Three - Coenheart scores one for Khalathwyr
Round Four - Coenheart
Round Five - Draw
Round Six - Coenheart
Winner - Khalathwyr
Machail: Khalathwyr declared as winner. I think if the fight continued longer we may have seen a shift, as Coen finished quite strongly.
Martuk: Indeed. Khal argued his side well. It just looks like the cards fell on Coens side this day.
Machail: Reverse that. Then frame it.
Martuk: Oh, doh!
JoBildo: That's all from the AoC Ten Ton Hammer Forum Fight Arena. Join us next time for Forum Fight #2 - Casual vs Hardcore.
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